found online by Raymond
From PZ Myers:
This is why Christianity is a death cult (although, in the case of the prosperity gospel, some splinters of it are transforming themselves into a money cult, which isn’t any better).
Suffering is not a blessing. We should not look on human beings in pain and console ourselves with the thought that the more despair they experience, the more likely they are to find Jesus. We should look on that pain and do what we can to end it.
Suffering in and of itself is not a good thing. If ones suffering causes one to turn more to God, then indeed good comes from it though. If others see your suffering and strive to help you because of it, then that too is good and what the gospels tell us we should do.
“If others see your suffering and strive to help you because of it, then that too is good and what the gospels tell us we should do.”
Unless that striving to help comes in the form of a government program, am I right?
Oh, not at all Trey! I love when the government takes care of everything and everyone so that I don’t have to worry about my own personal responsibilities to others.
Oh, you must be very disappointed the government doesn’t take care of everything. Maybe if we the people did more we could ease more of the suffering of others.
Trey,
As I gather from my con-servative studies, it’s not a problem if “parasites” with no personal responsibilities suffer.
They are poor, stupid and lazy, so they deserve to suffer, and do not deserve help from public health services. Their sickness is due to their moral failing and lack of personal responsibility.
They can go to emergency rooms. Isn’t that enough health care already?
May the light of con-servatism shine upon you in all its glory.
Right. I can see how some folks would develop that opinion. It’s the lack of empathy and a lot of “ostriching”. Certain people care about the suffering of others, until they get distracted by something trivial or focus on inconsequential aspects of how to help people. As we can see with what’s going on in Congress with the ACA repeal efforts. Rather than deal with the situation the ACA was trying to address or the issues that are occurring with the ACA, it’s more important to get rid of the ACA for the sake of getting rid of the ACA. Serious alternatives or serious discussion on addressing the problems just aren’t being put forward.
I also suppose this arches back to PZ Myers’ original post; Maybe there are people out there that would rather have people suffer in some misguided logic. I personally don’t believe that many people think this way, because it’s certainly not a version of a God I’d think many people would want to believe in. Bully a person into worshiping you.
Though, what do I know? We’ve got a President that seems to be mainstreaming and normalizing bullying and cyberbullying. He seems to have a fair amount of support. He has to for Congress not to stand up to him.
He seems to have a fair amount of support. He has to for Congress not to stand up to him.
And there it is. While some Republicans reluctantly admit Trump’s words are out of control, and even out of reality, they still support their mutual agenda. Trump may be a cruel, ignorant sociopath, but he shares their goals, so that’s that.
Birther-in-chief Trump is the product of decades of far Right propaganda and hate. They hate the “Black man” so much, it is more important to destroy his legacy than to actually craft a health care law. If people die, so be it. The real “Death Panel” is our Republican government.
If they followed Bush’s war based on lies for crony profit, and they agree that torture is a good practice, they will follow or abet their leader’s path to our nation’s ruin. They are con-servatives. It is who they are. They are authoritarians and they follow their leader. They are why we have a Trump in the first place.
And yes, they are all “Christians”. Who would Jesus torture and kill again?
Trey, I agree that congress should be putting forth and coalescing around a good and viable replacement for the disaster that is Obamacare. Sadly that institution is quite broken.
That said, far more of society’s ills when it comes to taking care of the poor should fall to communities, families, churches, private & public charities, and INDIVIDUALS.
“Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ ” ~ Matthew 25: 37-40
Christ told us to love our neighbor and take of our neighbor. He did not say vote for a government program to do it so you can wash your hands of it.
“That said, far more of society’s ills when it comes to taking care of the poor should fall to communities, families, churches, private & public charities, and INDIVIDUALS.”
I understand and agree with you, but…
“…should fall to…”
… there’s the rub. This is the problem, the issue, the reality. We can’t stop at should. I would much rather the government focus on other things. However, where there’s a hole, gap, or vacuum in support, we have set up our Government to help.
A lot of these conversations about government programs end up being a battle of ‘We Shoulds’. There’s this thing called compromise and an understanding that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Or the good enough. Partisans on both sides of the spectrum ridicule each other when giving an inch to the other side, but this is how stuff gets done. Solutions can be crafted.
“Christ told us to love our neighbor and take of our neighbor. He did not say vote for a government program to do it so you can wash your hands of it.”
He also didn’t say ‘Trey don’t eat that chocolate cake, you’ll regret it later’. He also didn’t say a lot of possible things. Do you only do the things Christ told you to do and nothing, whatsoever, else? This is not as strong an argument as you think.
Communities, families, churches, private and public charities and individuals all have very finite resources. The Federal Government has deeper pockets. There’s no harm to anyone’s liberty when we want to leverage our government to help our friends, family and individuals in need. When all these other possible resources aren’t available. Among other things, the Preamble to the Constitution does say that it’s meant to “promote the general Welfare”. We literally created a system where the society as a whole can ‘do unto others’, if only we’d actually think about others.
…”care of the poor should fall to communities, families, churches, private & public charities, and INDIVIDUALS.”
Jesus didn’t say that either, did he? Fact: Taxes to Rome actually fed the poor. Socialist Jesus knew this, and told people to pay their taxes.
And since when does this “solution” offer medical care to the needy? It fails.
Obamacare is a “disaster”? While Trumpists agree with this fringe rhetoric, those with the needed health care do not. But to Trumpists they are nothing but parasites.
I agree that in perfect world those sources could do the job. In the real world, they are at best only part of the solution. If government aid to the needy was ended, THAT would be the real disaster.
And how does a “community” care for itself? Taxes and services.
The Constitution calls for providing for the general welfare. Why? Because Mr. Paine’s ideology largely fails the poor. It would fail educational needs. It would fail in health care. Individuals, charities, and churches do not feed, and offer health care to all of the poor. That failure is why we need community, aka government, safety nets.
But to those Christians who scorn the needy as parasites, they really don’t care, do they? They will crow about giving to whomever THEY choose to give, of course.
They thoroughly fear and hate liberalism and what they blindly view as “communism”, more than they love their fellow man.
And there is the bottom line, folks.
Jeez, we took a similar approach to this. I promise to the viewers at home that Dave and I are not comparing notes…
You mean you are innocent of collaboration?
Trey, if you’re listening….No puppet! No puppet!
No puppet. No puppet. You’re the puppet!
Trey, I agree that “should” does not guarantee that the poorest among us will get the help they deserve. And that is truly sad.
A huge part of that is the “me first; me only” society we have raised, fostered, and encouraged. We have a spoiled generation of millennials, in particular, now that think they should be given a trophy for everything and be catered to by their parents, teachers, and bosses and the idea of sacrificing time, effort, or money to help anyone else is an absolutely foreign notion to most of them.
Next, it wasn’t that long ago when applying for government assistance was an admission of failure and resulted in a social stigma, rightly or wrongly. Now there are plenty of “services” including government employees themselves that show how to access the system for maximum benefit. And despite some folk’s thoughts to the contrary, I do not mind helping those needing a hand up (or even a hand out when they are UNABLE to provide for themselves.) I do find it disturbing when everyone thinks that they need a free phone, free college, or even cash for their clunker though.
It is in this vein that we no longer have a society that looks out for its poor, elderly, and needy. We have created this ourselves with our culture, so now we just look to the government to take care of the problem instead of being bothered with it on our own.
Yes, I think there is a place for local and even state government to help out with this problem, but it should not fall back to the grossly inefficient and often wasteful and corrupt federal government to have to “fix” this problem we have created because as families and communities, we no longer feel the need to take care of our own. That is now the government’s problem. THAT is my point, my friend.
I picture the image of a resentful, generalizing, angry old man shaking his fist and yelling at a cloud now.
“Free college”. Whoa, no. This is a nightmare, not a remedy, to those grumpy old men. They insist public education is the problem. They “love the uneducated”, but claim their safety nets are “grossly inefficient”.
Here’s the deal.
“Government is the problem. We need to trust Wall Street and the big money boys. Privatize! Monopolize! They would never take advantage of us like the evil government.”
And of course, our favorite con-servative resentment:
“Keep your government hands off my Medicare!”
Is it truly sad? ‘Cause all I get out of you and many other people are shoulds. At least “Free Phones” and “Free College” could be attempts to remedy problems.
Shoulds aside, now it’s the fault an entire generation of Millenials? REALLY? You’re resorting to the ‘Kids these days’ excuse? And that’s really it, isn’t it? Let’s look at pointing fingers at the cause of ills rather than addressing the ills, hmm? It’s easier afterall. You need medical care, you shouldn’t have fallen down those steps. You’re buried in college debt, you shouldn’t have listened to the previous generations touting that YOU MUST GO TO COLLEGE TO SUCCEED.
“Next, it wasn’t that long ago when applying for government assistance was an admission of failure and resulted in a social stigma, rightly or wrongly.”
What are you really saying here, T.Paine? That Rightly or Wrongly at the end really insinuates to me that you preferred people being scorned and ridiculed for needing assistance. That little bit at the end was unnecessary in that it opens the possibility that social stigma of the poor/needy is okay. I very much appreciate knowing that about you, T.Paine. Anectdotally; It was embarrasing enough for me to be unemployed for 8 months after being let go of a company that didn’t fail. I was let go because a larger company gobbled up the company I worked for and I was viewed as redundant. Why, that sounds like the company failed huh? It’s the medical industry. Private action and government inaction led to widespread consolidation of my industry because costs and prices became too high. Totally outside of my control. I could sell seven times, no seventy times seven times, the amount of stuff I sold, and it wouldn’t have mattered. I should have been scorned and rediculed for relenting and accepting government unemployment assistance. I worked very hard to find a job for 8 months. It was a job in and of itself. But it was 2009 and 2010. No one was hiring. So I should have been scorned because I asked the government for help so that I wouldn’t end up on the street. Cause, you know, scorning me would have made me find a job sooner.
But it’s ok. We all know the source of our issues in this “me first; me only”. Spoiled Millenials. They are the reason we have “Free phones” (No they’re not), “Free College” (What? Millenials are complaining about being buried in debt) and “Cash for Clunkers” (Economic crisis necessitating creating an incentive to buy cars to prop up the flailing auto industry. CAUSED BY MILLENIALS)
Dave isn’t totally wrong saying that you’re coming off sounding like an old man shouting at the clouds. With this comment, you really sound like an old man tilting at windmills. Kids these days? Really?
“It is in this vein that we no longer have a society that looks out for its poor, elderly, and needy. We have created this ourselves with our culture, so now we just look to the government to take care of the problem instead of being bothered with it on our own.”
Which is it? Kids these days or our culture? Either way. Pointing fingers isn’t a solution. Programs and incentives are at least TRYING. If churches, individuals, private entities and charities were doing enough, why the heck would the government be spending resources on it? Especially when we could be buying another Patriot Missile for our bloated military or Body Scanner for our theatrical troupe, the TSA?
This isn’t a ‘me first; me only’ society. We’re a society of Statlers and Waldorfs. Always criticizing and heckling from our balcony. Never contributing more.
“Is it truly sad? ‘Cause all I get out of you and many other people are shoulds. At least ‘Free Phones’ and ‘Free College’ could be attempts to remedy problems.” ~ Trey
Respectfully Trey, simply throwing money at the problem very seldom seems to fix the problem. Instead of a “try anything” approach, why don’t we start with trying to change the entitlement culture we have created? You know, “Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.”
In that vein, I wasn’t criticizing the millennial generation as their “entitlement mentality” being all of their fault. Indeed it is their parents in my generation that raised these spoiled kids that created this mindset. As such, it is my fault.
What I am suggesting is teaching civics, personal responsibility, honor, and integrity once again in schools, churches, communities, and in our culture as a whole. Only then will we possibly be able to change the mindset from that of entitlement to that of responsibility.
Further, let me clarify. I don’t scorn people simply because they need assistance. I have no problem helping those people out accordingly. What I have a problem with is the people that rely on assistance because they would rather not provide for themselves despite being fully capable. I sadly know quite a few examples of people like this personally. I also know a certain millennial young man that busts his ass with work. He is 24, single, and is already saving for his retirement and to buy a house while working long hours as a diesel mechanic. Sadly, his work ethic and revulsion to accepting a hand out when he needed it are far from the norm these days.
Also, I am sorry that you had to go through the misery of being laid off. I know personally how scary that can be. There is nothing wrong with partaking of unemployment benefits in such a situation. Indeed, that is what they were intended for. What is wrong is when people, unlike you, don’t try diligently to find a new job and are content to simply chill for a bit while accepting unemployment.
You are right that “shoulds” won’t fix things. Sadly, with the decades 0ld war on poverty having made no meaningful strides in fixing the problems, evidently creating more government entitlement programs and throwing more money at the issues isn’t the answer either.
Only be changing the culture and getting rid of the entitlement mindset will we change the amount of poor on assistance.
For those poor that truly CANNOT work, then as a civilized society, we have an obligation to take care of those folks in our communities. And, in my opinion, it should be done by their families, local churches, and charitable organizations first. Individual state governments can help as required. The federal government should not be involved though, again in my humble opinion.
While it’s not odd that I should disagree with Mr. Paine’s blaming again; there is a difference here. I’m relieved to not be the target of blame this time.
”…parents in my generation that raised these spoiled kids that created this mindset. As such, it is my fault.”
I admire Mr. Paine’s sense of shared responsibility, but the still over-generalized, millennial generation’s “entitlement mentality” is not the fault of Mr. Paine. Just as it is not the fault of liberals that a small minority of public assistance recipients abuse the system. Compare Wall Street abuse of the system for perspective.
Liberals, and those evil Democrats, are often accused of nurturing or approving the abuses of safety nets, largely to compound the resentments of the Right.
Mr. Paine has made it abundantly clear he resents welfare dependency by the able minded and able bodied. He probably doesn’t know it, but we liberals share this concern. We want them to work too. Liberals always have to get back to saying we need more and better jobs, rather than deprive abusers and victims alike of assistance. “Throwing money at the problem” is just a slogan of resentment and opinion. They never say that about the military or law enforcement. Waste fraud and abuse in those departments amount to more than that of a few “freeloaders”. With safety nets, those tax dollars actually feed and assist the needy. And that very much “fixes the problem” of immediate hunger or shelter, or health care.
I also would point to Trump and his offspring for how an entitlement mentality can be gargantuan. This entitlement culture thinks they should inherit billions tax free. The poor deprived things.
Mr. Dubya, I also agree with the implications of your statement. Wall Street abusers should never be bailed out with tax payer dollars. Further, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law when they break such statutes. Instead both Democrats and Republicans have put them into the highest offices of their administration. There is never a penalty for them so they will continue with business as usual.
And for the record, I also acknowledge and decry that waste, fraud, and abuse in the military as well. I railed against even when I was still in the Navy. It doesn’t matter until we stop the special interest groups from bribing… errrr… donating to home state senators and congress critters to haul their water when it comes time for creating a budget.
All of that said, we must help those truly in need. Those that are capable, should be given temporary assistance as they look for work. Those that wish to game the system should be made huge public examples out of by legal means when they are caught. Only then will we stem the waste and fraud.