http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php?disp=comments en-US http://backend.userland.com/rss 60 Sun, 29 Jul 2012 21:49:05 +0000 Ryan [Visitor] c27093@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ This ongoing debate is irritating. It is a very, very simple issue.<br /> <br /> If there is fraud, then we have a reason to take measures to stop it. If those measures threaten legitimate voting, then we have a reason to take measures to protect those votes.<br /> <br /> If there is disagreement, it should be over (1) whether or not there is fraud and (2) what to do to save legitimate votes.
If there is fraud, then we have a reason to take measures to stop it. If those measures threaten legitimate voting, then we have a reason to take measures to protect those votes.

If there is disagreement, it should be over (1) whether or not there is fraud and (2) what to do to save legitimate votes.]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c27093 Sun, 29 Jul 2012 17:47:41 +0000 Burr Deming [Member] c27078@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ I hope you recover from what must have been a wonderful Saturday night. Let's try this one more time:<br /> <br /> Other forms of identification should be accepted from those who do not have photo IDs.
Other forms of identification should be accepted from those who do not have photo IDs.]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c27078 Sun, 29 Jul 2012 17:37:37 +0000 The Heathen Republican [Visitor] c27077@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ Burr, while you are being perfectly reasonable, others on your side of the aisle claim that a photo ID, specifically, is racist and a new form of poll tax.<br /> <br /> All this time we've been arguing when it turns out you have no problem supporting the requirement of a photo ID to vote. I'm glad we've straightened that out.
All this time we've been arguing when it turns out you have no problem supporting the requirement of a photo ID to vote. I'm glad we've straightened that out.]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c27077 Sun, 29 Jul 2012 02:01:49 +0000 Burr Deming [Member] c27062@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ You are welcome, Heathen. Always glad to help someone understand the issue.<br /> <br /> I don't believe you will find anyone who is opposed to the acceptance of photo ID. Other forms of identification should be accepted from those who do not have photo IDs.<br />
I don't believe you will find anyone who is opposed to the acceptance of photo ID. Other forms of identification should be accepted from those who do not have photo IDs.
]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c27062 Sun, 29 Jul 2012 01:55:55 +0000 The Heathen Republican [Visitor] c27061@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ Thanks Burr. I opened the page and happily note that "government issued photo ID" is on the list of reasonable identification. I'm glad we agree. http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c27061 Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:27:22 +0000 Burr Deming [Member] c27048@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ Thank you Heathen.<br /> <br /> I can empathize with your lack of familiarity with alternate, workable, forms of identification. I have lost count of the times I have remarked on one topic or another: <b>"You could take my knowledge of that, fit it into a mosquito, and still have room for a Republican's heart."</b><br /> <br /> In this case, I can help you. A fairly comprehensive list of the many forms of identification with which you are ignorant has been compiled by the National Conference of State Legislatures.<br /> <br /> As you know, or at least I think you know, the combination of reasonable identification with extreme penalties for attempted fraud has worked so well that it is more likely that any stranger you meet will be killed before November by a grizzly bear than that that same stranger will attempt to vote fraudulently. Other, happier, comparisons have been made with winning million dollar lotteries. Those comparisons are also accurate. In person voter fraud simply does not happen.<br /> <br /> Let me know if I can help you further in expanding your knowledge of this important area of basic rights.<br /> <br /> Oh! Here's the information you need to bring you up to speed:<br /> <br /> http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx#Details
I can empathize with your lack of familiarity with alternate, workable, forms of identification. I have lost count of the times I have remarked on one topic or another: "You could take my knowledge of that, fit it into a mosquito, and still have room for a Republican's heart."

In this case, I can help you. A fairly comprehensive list of the many forms of identification with which you are ignorant has been compiled by the National Conference of State Legislatures.

As you know, or at least I think you know, the combination of reasonable identification with extreme penalties for attempted fraud has worked so well that it is more likely that any stranger you meet will be killed before November by a grizzly bear than that that same stranger will attempt to vote fraudulently. Other, happier, comparisons have been made with winning million dollar lotteries. Those comparisons are also accurate. In person voter fraud simply does not happen.

Let me know if I can help you further in expanding your knowledge of this important area of basic rights.

Oh! Here's the information you need to bring you up to speed:

http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx#Details]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c27048 Sat, 28 Jul 2012 15:42:03 +0000 The Heathen Republican [Visitor] c27041@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ Burr, you're deflecting. So you oppose using photo ID in favor of "systems of identification"? The most common identification system I'm familiar with is photo ID, which you oppose. http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c27041 Sat, 28 Jul 2012 00:08:09 +0000 Burr Deming [Member] c27008@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ Thank you, Heathen.<br /> <br /> We might go with what works about a hundred percent of the time. There are a lot of systems of identification. They vary from state to state. But what holds it all together have been penalties so harsh that they are wildly disproportionate to any benefit of individual in-person fraud.<br /> <br /> The number of people killed by lightning outnumber the those who have attempted voter fraud.<br /> <br /> The main reason conservatives want to make it harder for large numbers of people to vote is that they simply do not want those legitimate voters to cast ballots. Depriving people of this basic right is not a drawback, it is the only benefit.<br /> <br /> Why does this not trouble conservatives at all? Why does it not trouble you?
We might go with what works about a hundred percent of the time. There are a lot of systems of identification. They vary from state to state. But what holds it all together have been penalties so harsh that they are wildly disproportionate to any benefit of individual in-person fraud.

The number of people killed by lightning outnumber the those who have attempted voter fraud.

The main reason conservatives want to make it harder for large numbers of people to vote is that they simply do not want those legitimate voters to cast ballots. Depriving people of this basic right is not a drawback, it is the only benefit.

Why does this not trouble conservatives at all? Why does it not trouble you?]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c27008 Fri, 27 Jul 2012 23:23:28 +0000 The Heathen Republican [Visitor] c27005@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ <i>"I am for maintaining the integrity of democratic institutions by ensuring the basic right of all legitimate voters to exercise their right to vote. Why is that of no concern to you?"</i><br /> <br /> Burr, simply because, absent a valid photo ID, <b>how will anyone determine who a legitimate voter is?</b> "I am for maintaining the integrity of democratic institutions by ensuring the basic right of all legitimate voters to exercise their right to vote. Why is that of no concern to you?"

Burr, simply because, absent a valid photo ID, how will anyone determine who a legitimate voter is?]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c27005 Fri, 27 Jul 2012 08:07:42 +0000 Ryan [Visitor] c26951@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ "So let's assume there is zero voter fraud. With me so far?<br /> <br /> Asking voters to prove that they are eligible to vote by using a valid photo ID maintains the integrity of democratic institutions."<br /> <br /> If there is no voter fraud, then stricter laws will solve only one problem: the appearance of corruption. (In fact, they will not solve that problem, since suspicion will persist.) At the same time, however, they make legitimate voting more difficult for some citizens. If you still support stricter laws in this scenario, then you are either claiming that addressing the appearance of corruption is more important than those citizens' votes or denying that we will lose those votes.<br /> <br /> If conservatives wish to address this imaginary problem, then they ought to work with liberals to make sure that the stricter laws do not also cost us any votes. One side wants X; the other wants Y. Perhaps the two need not be mutually exclusive.<br /> <br /> However, if conservatives are truly serious about addressing fraud in elections, then they ought to focus on other types of election fraud, as Burr suggested some time ago.
Asking voters to prove that they are eligible to vote by using a valid photo ID maintains the integrity of democratic institutions."

If there is no voter fraud, then stricter laws will solve only one problem: the appearance of corruption. (In fact, they will not solve that problem, since suspicion will persist.) At the same time, however, they make legitimate voting more difficult for some citizens. If you still support stricter laws in this scenario, then you are either claiming that addressing the appearance of corruption is more important than those citizens' votes or denying that we will lose those votes.

If conservatives wish to address this imaginary problem, then they ought to work with liberals to make sure that the stricter laws do not also cost us any votes. One side wants X; the other wants Y. Perhaps the two need not be mutually exclusive.

However, if conservatives are truly serious about addressing fraud in elections, then they ought to focus on other types of election fraud, as Burr suggested some time ago.]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c26951 Fri, 27 Jul 2012 03:59:06 +0000 Burr Deming [Member] c26935@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ Thank you, Heathen.<br /> <br /> We do not need to assume there is zero in-person voter fraud. There is none. Massive efforts have been devoted to documenting such fraud, without success. That is why lawyers for Pennsylvania filed court documents saying there is no in-person voter fraud.<br /> <br /> Many voters have no photo IDs. Pennsylvania, in defending the new requirements, still had to admit that more than 9 percent of legitimate voters will be denied the right to vote.<br /> <br /> I am for maintaining the integrity of democratic institutions by ensuring the basic right of all legitimate voters to exercise their right to vote. Why is that of no concern to you?
We do not need to assume there is zero in-person voter fraud. There is none. Massive efforts have been devoted to documenting such fraud, without success. That is why lawyers for Pennsylvania filed court documents saying there is no in-person voter fraud.

Many voters have no photo IDs. Pennsylvania, in defending the new requirements, still had to admit that more than 9 percent of legitimate voters will be denied the right to vote.

I am for maintaining the integrity of democratic institutions by ensuring the basic right of all legitimate voters to exercise their right to vote. Why is that of no concern to you?]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c26935 Fri, 27 Jul 2012 01:32:57 +0000 The Heathen Republican [Visitor] c26932@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ Burr, you like to say that voter IDs aren't needed because instances of voter fraud are few or nonexistent. So let's assume there is zero voter fraud. With me so far?<br /> <br /> Asking voters to prove that they are eligible to vote by using a valid photo ID maintains the integrity of democratic institutions. For me, that's reason enough. Why isn't it reason enough for you?
Asking voters to prove that they are eligible to vote by using a valid photo ID maintains the integrity of democratic institutions. For me, that's reason enough. Why isn't it reason enough for you?]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c26932 Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:10:44 +0000 Burr Deming [Member] c26892@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ Hi, Mr. Paine.<br /> <br /> Actually, there was no attempt in Virginia to register dead people, children, or pets. Forms were sent from a flawed mailing list, kind of like the list Florida is trying to use to purge voters.<br /> <br /> There have been silly registrations turned in, in conformity to laws that make it illegal to discard bogus forms rather than turn them in. Those laws were written to prevent tricking people into thinking they were registered, then throwing away the applications: a practice a few conservative activists can no longer use in minority neighborhoods.<br /> <br /> About your list: When penalties on pretty much any practice become so harsh they are wildly disproportionate to any benefit, a photo ID becomes unneeded. That would include pretty much anything on your list. That is also why Pennsylvania had to file a stipulation that in-person voter fraud has never happened in the state and that there was no prospect that it would happen.<br /> <br /> The harm that would occur, turning away legitimate voters, telling them they cannot vote, is regarded by conservatives in Pennsylvania as a benefit. At least that's what they say publicly.<br /> <br /> But thanks for the list and the comment about pets and children.
Actually, there was no attempt in Virginia to register dead people, children, or pets. Forms were sent from a flawed mailing list, kind of like the list Florida is trying to use to purge voters.

There have been silly registrations turned in, in conformity to laws that make it illegal to discard bogus forms rather than turn them in. Those laws were written to prevent tricking people into thinking they were registered, then throwing away the applications: a practice a few conservative activists can no longer use in minority neighborhoods.

About your list: When penalties on pretty much any practice become so harsh they are wildly disproportionate to any benefit, a photo ID becomes unneeded. That would include pretty much anything on your list. That is also why Pennsylvania had to file a stipulation that in-person voter fraud has never happened in the state and that there was no prospect that it would happen.

The harm that would occur, turning away legitimate voters, telling them they cannot vote, is regarded by conservatives in Pennsylvania as a benefit. At least that's what they say publicly.

But thanks for the list and the comment about pets and children.]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c26892 Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:31:35 +0000 T. Paine [Visitor] c26882@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ Yeah, this is just foolish partisan politics. I mean why would one need to have a photo ID in this day and age, except for perhaps the following:<br /> <br /> Buy alcohol<br /> Buy cigarettes<br /> Apply for welfare<br /> Apply for food stamps<br /> Cash a check<br /> Purchase a firearm <br /> Make any large credit card purchase<br /> Open a bank account <br /> Rent an apartment <br /> Be admitted to a hospital <br /> Get a marriage license <br /> Flying commercially<br /> Driving<br /> Renting a car<br /> Getting a mortgage<br /> Getting a passport<br /> And God knows what else I have missed.<br /> <br /> Yeah, requiring an ID for voting is obviously racist and politically motivated. Never mind the fact that just the other day I saw another story in the mainstream media that had found a group in Virginia that was trying to register dead people, children, and even pets with pre-filled out voter registration cards sent to various "citizens". Yeah, there is obviously no reason for concern here. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...<br /> <br />
Buy alcohol
Buy cigarettes
Apply for welfare
Apply for food stamps
Cash a check
Purchase a firearm
Make any large credit card purchase
Open a bank account
Rent an apartment
Be admitted to a hospital
Get a marriage license
Flying commercially
Driving
Renting a car
Getting a mortgage
Getting a passport
And God knows what else I have missed.

Yeah, requiring an ID for voting is obviously racist and politically motivated. Never mind the fact that just the other day I saw another story in the mainstream media that had found a group in Virginia that was trying to register dead people, children, and even pets with pre-filled out voter registration cards sent to various "citizens". Yeah, there is obviously no reason for concern here. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

]]> http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c26882 Thu, 26 Jul 2012 01:11:22 +0000 The Heathen Republican [Visitor] c26845@http://www.fairandunbalanced.com/ Yawn. http://fairandunbalanced.com/blog1.php/2012/07/25/amazing-voting-court-case-in-pennsylvani#c26845